In this episode, I interview previous guest of the ATTRACT podcast, Jo Hutton, about the exponential growth she’s seen on Instagram. Jo’s reel went viral (8M+ views!), and she shares how it was the byproduct of intentionality, and the impact it's had on both her life and business.
Jo shares the mechanics behind this viral piece of content, how she managed the aftermath from both a business perspective and a personal perspective, unexpected ways it impacted both her life and her business, and she shares some brilliant tips for you to apply to your own business too.
You can find out more about Jo and her brilliant community here:
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To find out more about 1:1 mentoring with Anna, DM me on Instagram.
What you’ll learn from this episode on the ATTRACT Podcast:
How Jo intentionally created viral Instagram content
How she managed the follower growth from both a personal and business perspective
Her tips on generating sales from Instagram
How she now manages her virality
Prefer to read over listen? Read the transcript
Anna: Hi, Jo, and welcome back to the podcast. You're the first guest who's actually making a second appearance. I absolutely loved our first conversation. So when we had a conversation about recording another episode, I was completely all in, as you know. So I'm really excited to dive in with you today. And we're going to talk about a topic that's a little bit different, and actually something that I believe happened in between our last conversation and now. So would you like to explain actually what sort of happened? and we could start to kind of dive into it because it's really cool. I think it's going to be really relevant to a lot of the listeners of this podcast.
Jo: Yeah, absolutely. So, I had decided that I wanted to really dive into my social media. I had, the for a couple of reasons. but mostly because I just wanted a creative challenge. So I've been spending a lot of time on TikTok. And as when you consume things and the vibe on TikTok is just very different to the vibe on Instagram and the vibe on other channels. and nobody knows me on TikTok. I don't have a follow on on TikTok, whereas on Instagram, I've been there for years and I, I was just creatively curious about, start and posting on TikTok.
And I thought, right, okay, I'm going to get I'm going to like, take apart how videos work and then put them like learn, learn how to do it. Because that's what I like doing, that I'm quite geeky like that. I like to take things apart and learn how to do them and then put them back together. So just for my own fun, started working a guy, like, teaching me how TikTok works. So I started making videos on TikTok.
And because I had the videos on TikTok, I thought, well, I'll, I may as well post them on Instagram because, you know, I've made the content and, you know, lazy, lazy girl marketing. I may as well just put it on Instagram as well. And TikTok wasn't biting the cherry, so I was putting them on TikTok, and it was kind of the video was going to like 400 views and then as it happens, but I was getting quite good engagement and I was learning how to like, put together a video and. like slowly on Instagram. I was starting to get a little bit more traction and I thought, oh, that's a bit weird. good. But like unexpected.
And I didn't really think much about it. And then I had a video and it got, I think I've got like 3000 likes and it got, I got like 2000 followers from it. And to me I was like, oh, that's I've gone viral. That's amazing. And then the video, I posted a video and then about two weeks after I posted it, it started getting more traction. the video was a neck stretch video. and it started getting a little bit more traction. I was like, oh, that's interesting. and then I was getting like a thousand followers a day. And it felt a little bit much.
And then I was on, I was ill, I had Covid, and I was just, you know, when you, like, literally can't get out of bed. And for something happened that day where Instagram was just like, yes, this video, this video is going to be sent to everyone And it got it had 8 million views and I got 30,000 followers in one day. And it just kept and it was like, and it was crazy. It was like so surreal because people like Zoe Ball, Dawn French, Cheryl Strayed, like people were liking it and sharing it, and I actually turned off sharing because it was it was too much for us. I was like, oh, this feels completely out of like I felt like I had lost. It felt like a snowball going down the hill. And I was like, oh, I, I'm in not in control of this anymore.
So turned off sharing. and then it's and now it's, it's slowed down. But the video is since then that have been post and have The momentum has stayed, but it is a lot, lot more manageable now than it was then. It was fun and exciting, but like, also quite vulnerable because you think, oh, I made this for the 200 people that normally see it, and actually 8 million people have seen it and that wasn't that. That's like a girlboss too close to the sun. Like that was that was I wanted a little bit. And I've got a lot.
Anna: That's incredible. Yeah. And actually, I can't believe all of this happened since our last recording, didn't it? So, yeah, that's incredible. Actually, as you were speaking there, I recall you talking about exploring things on TikTok a little bit. I know you talked about how you are really creative and curious and you were sort of doing things, testing things. So before we kind of dive into what sort of happened afterwards, how you felt and, you know, some of the other things I'd love to chat a little bit about, I suppose the actual like notion of creating these videos that have gone viral, how much of it was kind of strategic versus, versus a little bit of algorithm look in your eyes, because it does sound like there was a lot of strategy behind it. But to you, what kind of what was the balance there that you've seen?
Jo: I think that there's definitely a bit of luck. So I think that the algorithm is favouring longer form content at the minute. I think that the, algorithm is fairer and more like storytelling and, things that are more interactive. I don't think that Instagram I think I got ahead of the curve a little bit because I was making stuff for Tick Tock, and I think Instagram is following where TikTok has gone, and I didn't know that. But now I think people are starting to talk about that a bit more. and so there was strategy in place, but it was a lot of experimentation.
So now I feel, I feel because I've done that experiment. And and obviously you can't predict what's going on. I'm not going to say, like, I know the secret sauce because I, I don't I'm not saying that, but what I'm saying is I understand what my audience like now. And so I'm. Whereas before I felt a little bit like, oh, it's just luck. now I feel a bit more confident in that. It's it's not just fluke and it's, you know, it's going to be a one time thing. I feel a little bit more like, I understand, what content does. What if that makes sense? and yes, there is stuff for discoverability, but that's not necessarily the most important content because you also need the nurture and content as well, which sounds really cold when I'm putting it like that. But actually it's it is it isn't cold. It's really fun. I actually really enjoy it. It's it sounds like I've stripped all of the, like, humanity out of it and the creativity out of it, making it strategic. But it's it's not it's just understanding, or the components of it and what bits do what, so that you're a bit more in control and you're not just at the mercy of the inverted commas algorithm, because at the end of the day, you the algorithm, all that Instagram wants is for you to stay on the platform.
So if you can make content, it doesn't matter what niche you're in. It doesn't matter what, form you're using, whether you're doing long form, short form, whatever. Instagram just really cares about watch time and shares and that's. And if you can get people to watch your videos, then that's like, don't. My advice to myself when I first started and my advice to other people would be, don't really worry about things like trend and sounds. Don't worry about like viral trends and just make stuff that's going to really resonate with your audience. That like. And that sounds. That's such easier said than done.
Anna: No, actually, I love this. And I love what you've said here because actually, yeah, you're kind of diving into here how it is strategic. And also it's a little bit of look from the algorithms. But. From my perspective, you created a lot of that look and then the things lined up, because from everything that you're saying that it's actually just marketing, isn't it? Experimentation, knowing your ideal client, producing valuable content. You know, I watched the video myself, and I've engaged with your content for a couple of years now, and it's great. You know, it's truly of value. Your audience was already engaging. That's how the algorithms even know to push it out to a wider audience, isn't it? Because your current audience engages. So it actually when you break it down, it's actually still the fundamentals of marketing strategy, isn't it, really?
Jo: Really? but then you've kind of lined up the dots with. Absolutely. And I think it's really important that you make stuff that you're not going to get sick of and that you can make like, as I think for a long time on social media, I was making content for this algorithm, this beast, the algorithm, and I was making content for this. And knowing your ideal client is is really important. But like You've also got to make it sustainable and fun for you. And and actually people resonate with people who are having fun. I always think it's a little bit like going to see a band. like the best bands, the best performers, or the people who are really enjoying themselves because that's infectious and that's what people want to watch. And that's how come people will watch a video of a 15 year old boy doing a dance and warned, connect so much with, like a marketing manager who's got all this? It's almost like there needs to be a little bit of, joy in it as well. and so you have to make your content something that you connect with because you're your first client at the end of the day.
Anna: I love that, yeah. And actually some of the studying that I've done, it's been around how, you know, a lot of we actually say speaks to the unconscious mind as well. And that transaction is so big, isn't it? People can tell whether we're authentic, whether we're aligned, whether, as you say, whether we're actually having fun that comes through, doesn't it? It's what you're reading in between the lines. So I absolutely agree with you. In fact, I think first and foremost you've got to be using formats and channels and media types that suit you, that you're actually going to enjoy, I mean, let alone for the reason of consistency. you know, and actually being consistent in the media that you've chosen, but then as well, how you're going to be portrayed through that media.
Jo: Absolutely. And I think that people often, think that, if they find something hard, then it must be valuable. and actually leaning into the things that you find a bit is probably the best and things that you find easy other people won't find easy. And just because you find it easy doesn't mean that everyone can do
Anna: No, it absolutely does. And in fact, I believe we talked about this a little bit last time, but it's so important I think it's that notion isn't it, of we have this tendency to want to overcomplicate because easy doesn't seem to equal results. Easy doesn't seem to equal reward. So it's definitely an extension when we look at it in the through the lens of marketing as
Jo: Yeah, definitely. And simple. thing I'm learning with my videos is like, you have a tendency to want to put all of your value into, into a piece of content. And actually content that you see that's not landing isn't because what they're saying isn't that, piece of content should have been 15 pieces of content, because we actually only have we can only learn one thing at once. And just because we understand a concept, because where the professionals doesn't mean that our audience does. So given more isn't better as much as you can, That's what I'm learning at the minute.
Anna: Yeah, that that makes absolute sense for sure. So I'd love to dive in a little bit around what happened with this video. 8 million views. Absolutely incredible. What kind of happened at this moment. I know you touched on there how you turned off the shares because it did seem to snowball. And I can imagine that actually, because all of a sudden you've been used to something, you're comfortable with something, and then it's just expanded at a rate that you can't control. But I'd love to hear from all angles, actually. I mean, if we can cover it, how it kind of felt, what came up, the some of the impacts that you've seen, what happened?
Jo: So at first it was really frightening and it wasn't frightening because anything bad was happening. It was frightening because I had been exactly what you're saying. It was expanding at a rate that I had no control over, but also I was visible in, and I didn't know when it was going to end like. And I know that it sounds ridiculous now because obviously it was going to slow down, but it wasn't slowing down, and it just kept getting more and more and more. And I was like, and I was getting like, oh, what if this like what everyone in the world sees my video and actually it's it was such an innocuous video, like for a video to go viral, that was probably the best one because it was it linked directly to what I do. and it was so it was interesting, but also it wasn't controversial in any way. So it wasn't like I was getting any bad comments. I wasn't getting any. But you don't know, like there was I had one comment about my appearance, which the most British woman I've ever seen. And I was like, is that a is that. I'm gonna just. I am British, so I'm just gonna dive in for that too much because actually I am a British woman, so I'm just gonna I'm not sure if that was meant as an insult or not, but I'm just gonna I'm gonna let that slide.
But I think because, you know, I'm not a marginalized so So I didn't get any of the nastiness, which I am so grateful for because it would be so much worse. Like, this was frightening for me, but I can't imagine what it must be like if you are, if you are marginalized and you get the the troll comments like that would be horrendous. so I was really. Lucky and privileged. that I didn't get much, of the downside from it. but even so, it was still quite, I think dysregulated is probably a good word rather than frightening, because it was just It was just the unknown. as, as, you know, every time you level up something, you have to slowly get used to it. And, you know, you have to kind of, like, rewire your identity, don't you?
I think I wouldn't have found it as frightening if it had happened gradually, but because it just went boom. And because I grew from 2500 followers to 170,000 followers in the space of a month. So, like, it wasn't. And now I'm just now I feel comfortable with that number. but I felt. Like a fraud. I felt like someone was going to, like, rip it. The rip the cover up and show the man behind the curtain, you know, like it? It felt like I was doing something bad, even though I wasn't. But that's how it. That's how it felt. And there wasn't anyone really that I could speak to about it because all the cultures, because everyone just thought was a good thing. So when I was telling people, they were like, oh, well, that's great. And when I was like, no, it's actually really frightening. it sounded a little bit like I was being, being ungrateful or humble bragging. And actually, I just wanted to speak to someone who had who had gone through it as well. because all of the advice out there and all the coaches there is just like, that's the end point. Going viral is the end point. And once you've got that, but there's not really much advice about what to do once you have that there's not like there's not much coaching around how to deal with the platform of that size, and not even necessarily because there's, you know, there's lots of ways like how to monetize it. And I don't necessarily mean that.
But like, I was still I was still treating my followers. You know, when you have a 2000 followers, the advices reply to every message. every DM you get reply to them. send a message to every follower you get like I was the someone said to me, oh, you should be sending a message to every follower you get. And I'm like, I'm getting 30,000 followers in one day. Like I cannot physically send a message. Like I still haven't gone back through. I know there's loads of people who followed me who I would really like to follow back, but it's just been. Too much, and I think that shift would, if it had happened over time, would have been a really easy shift because you would just slowly put those boundaries in place. but because it was so sudden, it's like, oh, how do I deal with an account this size when I'm used? because I can't reply to every DM. I can't reply to every message and because I think, what if you've done it slowly over time, as you would have got a team in place? as you'd grown? so I'm having to learn that kind of after the test. I'm having to learn it the other way around, and it's. And don't get me wrong, like, it's so much fun. And I am really, like, of all of the problems in the world to have, this is like the loveliest problem to have. And I'm not complaining about it, but I do think that there isn't. like I never had someone talking about this, and that would have been really helpful for me.
Anna: Yeah, that makes total sense. You're absolutely right. Everything you're talking about here really is the after point, isn't it? You were saying everybody talks about going viral, but from what you're describing, there are quite a lot of things you then had to consider and shift. Like you said, it's a great thing, but it's about making sure it fits with your mental health and sanity - being there for the people who want your content and adjusting around that. I can imagine that will have been challenging. It also sounds like you've done it really well and perhaps are still doing this. I imagine it's still an ongoing adjustment.
Jo: Absolutely. And it's lovely as well, because having to consider what your voice is is a privilege. The fact that you've got a platform to have a voice at all is a privilege. I feel like the stuff that I do talk about is really, really important. I think it's life-changing and carries a lot of weight. So having to consider the weight of your voice is not a bad thing. It's just something I should have done earlier anyway and didn't because I could get away with it. So I think it's a good thing that I'm doing this, and it's a privilege to have a platform. You're right, it'll be an ongoing thing because my platform will change, my audience will change. Things will come and go. So I think it's something to revisit at different points.
Anna: That makes absolute sense. And again, actually, these are the fundamentals of any strategy really - we check in, we review, we look at metrics. Perhaps we look at the direction we want to go in. So yeah, I love that. It might be a slightly different consideration, but at the end of the day it's still asking if this is in line with where I want to go with the brand. It sounds like it makes a lot of sense to me. I'd love to hear, actually - and I know you've probably talked through some of these - but if you were to give anybody any little nuggets of advice for if they did go viral, what would the top couple of things be?
Jo: I would say set up your platform before it happens, so when it does happen, you've got everything in place. You've got your bio set up properly, you've got somewhere to direct people. And really consider - is going viral what you want, or do you want to nurture the community you have? What you're going to get is more of what you have now. So if you're not getting what you want now, having more of it isn't going to help. Having more eyes on content that isn't landing isn't going to do you any favors. You need to get that landing first and then think about going viral, because then you'll get more of what's working. If you've got content that's landing and then you get loads of views, that's going to make sales. But if you're not, then it's not. And that's something that I'm now having to go back and look at.
Ride it out and turn off your phone - don't just sit and watch it happen. And also know that the numbers really don't mean anything. They are just numbers. Numbers are actually not going to make you feel any different. It's the same as numbers on the scale or numbers in your bank account. It's very easy to say, "Oh, well, that number isn't going to make you happy." And if you're on the other side of it, you're like, "But no, I would be happy if I weighed that much or had that much in my bank account or had that many followers." But actually, that's not how it works. You just start shifting the goals and if you can't be happy where you are, you're not going to be happy there.
Anna: Which is such a great thing to say. But it's true. Yeah, I know it makes total sense, actually. And I suppose from what I'm hearing from this conversation as well, it's kind of like your response - you choose your response to these things and you've done it in a considered way. You've identified that they're just numbers and that it doesn't equate to value, you know, as in on you - it's not a reflection, is it, in that sense. So yeah, I really love those tips. That's a really good point as well, because I actually think myself, I'm not always great with my boundaries around my phone. And I can have this tendency to kind of get into this doom scroll. Has it changed your sort of boundaries that you've set around social media at all?
Jo: It has. For the first couple of weeks, it just went completely out the window. And I think it was just a nervous system thing where my nervous system was completely dysregulated. And so I got into this loop of, can I regulate? Like, obviously not consciously, but subconsciously. The dopamine hit of having that much stuff is like a drug. It really is like a drug. And so when it starts cooling down, you're not - I wouldn't go so far as to say like a withdrawal, but it feels like a hangover where you're like, "Oh, this was really exciting. And now it's not." And so what do you do when you're looking for that next bit of dopamine? You refresh the page looking for more.
So I've had to do a lot - like I've done so much meditating and going outside, like touching grass. Just being in the real world. But my relationship - I'm not going to sit here and pretend that I've got the most amazing relationship with my phone because I think it's really hard when it's for your job. You've always got that excuse of being like, "Well, it's my job." And you're like, "But is it, though? Is what you're doing right now for your job or are you just scrolling?" I have self-awareness about it, which is the first step. And I do try. But when I was in a good place with my relationship with my phone, that threw us off completely. And now I'm getting it back.
Anna: That's really impressive, actually, because this has all been in a really quite short space of time. And, you know, I think about my own relationship with my phone. And I try to stick to really good habits because I know that I could get to the end of a day and have actually done very little because a lot of it was spent scrolling. So I think it's really commendable actually, that you've already got to that point where it's better.
Jo: Well, you get rock star syndrome, don't you? Where you're just working really hard, you're not going out. And just because your brain feels tired, you feel like you've done a full day's work. But actually, if you break down what you've done, you've done very little. And you're totally right. I think the only way to do it is to be strict with yourself, which is obviously really hard. And I'm not saying it's easy, and I'm not pretending that I've got it down because I'm sure if you asked my husband, he'd be like, "No, her iPhone is permanently attached to her hand."
I actually got - do you know this is so bad? And I probably shouldn't be even admitting this as a yoga teacher, but I got - when it first happened, I refreshed my page so much, I got a sore thumb. I actually got like repetitive strain in my thumb because I was - and because I was lying in bed with Covid, I couldn't even get up and go to watch the telly. So I was just literally lying on my side, just watching the numbers go up and being like, "Oh." And that was a bit of a wake-up call. So when I got a sore thumb, I was like, "Hmm, no, this is not how I want to live my life." So I think having that wake-up call helped as well.
Anna: Yeah, yeah. But so in terms of a slightly different angle here - in terms of your business and your capacity, has that changed anything or were you set up in that sense as well? Because I know that for some people, going viral would mean they would have to switch up a lot of their offers. They would really have to look at their capacity to be able to actually take on any new clients, for example. I know you've obviously got your online membership, but did you kind of have to make any changes or were you kind of ready for that to happen in that instance?
Jo: I had - the goal was always to increase the numbers in the community, which is my online membership, and that's a one-to-many model where it doesn't really matter how many people I have. And I had in Covid already had a big capacity in that package before. So I was quite lucky in that, no, I didn't really have to change much. I am moving a little bit away from teaching as much in person. So I've stopped doing my pregnancy yoga class in person, but that was going to happen anyway. It's just kind of speeded that up.
But no, because I don't really do much one-to-one, if any. I don't do any one-to-one now. I just got more people into the online community, which was lovely because that was what I had wanted. So that had been the beginning goal, to get people into the online community because it's much nicer when there's more people in because it's just got a bit more of a vibe. So the more the better.
Anna: Oh that's really good then. Yeah, it just highlights I suppose as well the importance of kind of having all of your systems set up. And I suppose even not just the actual offers that you're moving people towards, but even like the processes and the systems that support that, you know, having those things in place.
Jo: I had already automated everything. It's - you've done something in the past and you forget that you'd actually done that work. And so you don't really see it as work anymore. But I had put the automations in place already. I've tweaked a few things, but not really. I'd already put that work in during Covid. It hasn't been bad at all, really. It's actually been really lovely to have new people and fresh blood in the community. It's made it a lot more vibrant and it's re-energized me, I think.
And also I'm getting messages about stuff - like this is the content that lasts. Because you do something, you forget about it. And it's very easy to just think that you should, like things on Instagram, make new stuff all the time. But I'm getting emails about my podcast, and the first time someone had sent me an email about my podcast, I was like, "Oh, I'd forgotten about that" because I'd made it like three years ago. It's only eight episodes and I made it. And then I was like, "Oh, this is too much, I can't make it anymore." But I'm getting emails of people being like, "I've just binged your podcast." That work you've put in previously starting to pay off is such a lovely feeling because you're like, "Oh yeah, I did actually do all that work and I'd forgotten about it."
And I think sometimes it's very easy to think you're not getting anywhere or you haven't done much, but actually it's an accumulation of work over the years. Certainly you've got this body of work where if people are just discovering you, they're like, "Oh, you've done loads." And you're like, "Oh yeah, I had, but I hadn't put that together that I had that much content out there."
Anna: Oh, I love that. Yeah, that's really good actually. Yeah. It compounds, doesn't it? And actually, it just - I'm really pleased for you as well that it's worked out in that way because actually as you were speaking then, I was just thinking that that could really be the difference between managing and not managing. And you've managed it because it was all there, and it's actually worked out really well in that sense. And as you've said, people have flowed through, they've been able to identify different pieces of content. They've been able to say, "Yeah, the membership is for me." But actually it's really great that you had all of that in place. And definitely massive kudos for doing that, because if you hadn't, it would have been a real scramble to sort of, you know, even down to the questions that you'd be - you'd just be like, "Where do I go now?" Because people do want a place to go. And it would have then been quite urgent, I suppose, to manage that.
Jo: It would have been awful. Like, I can't imagine going viral and not having the systems in place to deal with it. It would have been absolutely awful. Like, do not try and go viral until you've got everything in place because there's just no point. And also you can only ever make one first impression. So - and I'm not saying, you know, if you go viral then people will remember it forever. Because it's very - you know, it's tomorrow's fish paper, isn't it? But it's also a waste of energy. Try putting all your energy into creating strategies and nurturing the relationships that you've got. Because if you can do it on a small level, then you scale. Really do put your energy into making the small thing really good. And then - because there's definitely things that I would change. Like, I don't have a YouTube channel. I really should have had a YouTube channel. But I'll make a YouTube channel and it will be fine. It's not the end of the world.
But yeah. Don't put all your energy into trying to go viral because it's literally just someone seeing one of your reels. And I know people who've gone viral and they've had loads of views but people haven't followed them and people haven't - you know, you can go viral and then literally not - it's a bit of a damp squib.
Anna: Yeah, it's interesting you said that actually, because I think I see that more. I think I see more people have one or two viral videos, but the followers do not go up. You're proof that when you've done it right, I would say - as in when you've gone viral, but based on ideal client research, strategy, experimentation - you've shown that actually it can be a really good thing because those followers are sticking around for a reason. So I think that's the real difference there between, you know, virality that leads to the followers as well, because I have honestly seen so many videos that have reached, you know, into the millions and the follower number hasn't shifted.
Jo: I think it is whether your content is in line with the rest of your content because you don't want - this is why I think trying to do these things to just get you viral, you know, the trends and sounds and the six-second videos with the text on the screen. And yes, you will get views, but it's not sustainable. And I think that, because when I follow someone, I want more of what they've just given us. And so if you can't give them more of that - like if you've used a template or you've just been given how to do something, then you're not going to be able to keep doing that.
There will be something that you can do that you love doing, that you can replicate again and again and again. So just get known for that rather than relying on - you see a lot of these, you know, a lot of these viral people who are like, "You can go viral" and then they give you a template of what to do. Do you know what I mean? Where they're like, "Use this trend and sound and use this." And then they put it together for you. Well, yes, you might get a lot of eyeballs on that piece of content, but then where's the substance behind it?
And I think a lot of those - you've kind of, you know, the six-second thing. So it loops. People are so - like your audience isn't stupid. Like, you might be able to trick the algorithm, but you won't be able to trick people because they'll just - people will get sick of it. They're like, "Oh," and then what happens is the algorithm goes, "Oh, people don't like that anymore." And they're going to - it's going to - and that kind of content won't work anymore. So you need to make something that is going to - yeah, it's more - find what works with you, like what is your message? And just say that and repeat that and make it.
And I think people forget that social media is an entertainment platform. It used to be a social platform and now it's an entertainment platform. So make it entertaining. Make it fun. There's a lot of people who make content that's - oh, this is going to sound quite controversial, but the word sounds quite harsh, but it's not harsh - quite selfish content where it's all about - and actually, if you think about yourself when you're scrolling through, you don't really give a crap about other people. You are wanting to be entertained, and you want to know how it relates to you. Because it's your experience. And so put yourself - like, what are you giving your audience? And lean into that as much as possible because you do give - like everybody has something to give and everyone can make something entertaining. They just have to - and you have to practice, I think, as well.
It takes a lot of - nobody's going to just be able to do it straight away. It's a skill that takes time and practice to learn, and I think that it's really scary to practice something new in public. You've got to - you've got to climb Cringe Mountain. You've got to be okay being seen. Which is why I think TikTok worked really well for me, because no one knew us over on TikTok. So I could go there and be cringe. And it was all right because I was like, "Oh no, no, these are just strangers, so it's fine." And then that was how I learned what was working and what wasn't.
I even said to my husband, I was like, "Andy, I am going to be really - like, I am going to really go in on social media. So you are going to see me be a bit cringe. And I think that our families and our friends are going to be like, 'Oh, Jo's on social media again,' but I just need you to like, support me on it." And if anyone ever comments on it, you just have to like. And he would anyway. Like he's so supportive. But I was like, I was like, if anyone says to you, "Oh Joe, Joe's being cringe," you just have to like, "No, I need you to support." And I think that having that freedom to allow myself to be embarrassed and cringe helped me learn the skills. Because you've got to not... it's not a gift. It's not a God-given gift. It's a skill that you learn. I mean, none of us just get behind the wheel for the first time, do we? Just knowing how to drive. Yeah, you've got to... We've all got to be beginners, haven't we?
And it's actually... What's the word? We've almost got to... okay being a beginner. I think that's how you grow, isn't it? When you kind of a beginner and then you actually just do the work, you know, if you always want to be an expert, it's going to be really difficult. You know, everything is going to be behind the scenes. It's going to be difficult to even get to that expert level if you're not doing that experimentation.
I'm not particularly clever, and I'm not particularly skilled. But one thing that I think has really set me up for life is that I have, like, this absolute audacity that if I can Google it, I can do it. Like I genuinely just think that like, it's just confidence that, well, how hard can it be? Like they can do it, and that the belief that I can learn how to do it.
And I think that, that was actually something that I got a little bit later in life. When I was younger, I definitely thought that you had the skills or you didn't have the skills. And that actually... Oh, no, I can learn. Created a bit of a monster, because then I was like, "Oh, well, I can just do... I can learn, I can just learn anything." Like it's... I might not be the best at it and I might not be... but I can learn and get better.
And I think that's something that if you can believe that about yourself, you're going to be so much more... I think life's just going to be easier because you don't identify with your failures as hard and you don't, you don't identify with your successes as much. You just like... it's more about a curiosity, about how things work rather than being like, "I have failed, I am no good" or "I am great, and I have done really well." You just kind of level it out and it just becomes more like, "Oh, this is quite fun. How does this..." I think this has really helped me be able to do things like this without getting embarrassed.
Anna: Yeah, I love that perspective actually. Yeah. The curiosity and I love... I think that's really admirable quality actually. You know, just... you're right. We can all do things. We can if we accept that we are going to be a beginner at some point. You know, we... we can do things. I love that. I think it's... yeah, you can... I can see why you are seeing, you know, the success that you are when you have the attitude.
Jo: But I think I copied that off people that I'd seen who were successful because I was like, why are they successful? Like, what is it? They're obviously not the most intelligent person in the room. They're obviously not like the most... And obviously there's... there's privileges that people are born with. But just because you're privileged doesn't mean that you're successful, and just because you're not privileged doesn't mean you won't be successful. There must be something that... and that was the quality that I could see and that tied successful people together, which... it was just their belief... "Oh, I can... I can learn that. Like I'll just learn it" which I really admired in people. And then was like, "Oh, I'm just going to... I'm going to steal that quality and I'm going to steal that. I'm going to learn. I'm going to learn how to learn."
Anna: I love it, I love it, I love it. Thank you so much for sharing all of this. Actually, it's been incredible I think... so insightful. And, you know, really, really kind of digging behind the scenes. And, you know, I'd love to know actually, if there's anything else that you would like to share around this, I mean, it's been so valuable.
Jo: I have loved this thing that's happened. I've just... I feel so... I still feel a little bit in that there are people who are interested in what I've got to say. I think that it's really, it's really humbled us and... One thing that it can do, which is I think the most important thing is that it can link you to your community. So now I feel like now that the virality thing is die down a little bit and it's a bit more sustainable and it's just taken on, is that what has been left is this absolutely lovely community of people who are just... who I am learning from.
And I think that... I think if you are going to focus on anything... Focused on your community. And I know that sounds really trite, like, you know, just focus on your community, like, well, what does that mean? But really do, look at who's, you know, don't only have your social media platform as a, as a beacon for you to talk about yourself, have it as a place for conversations to happen and be interested in other people as well, which... they aren't your audience. They're your community where you...
I think old Instagram was very much like aesthetic and it was very like, "I'm the influencer. Here is a picture of me, look at me." And now I think that people are craving that community. So you're more like a... I'm actually not doing any brand deals. I've thought a lot about it, and I just think that...
Anna: Speak to us in it in two years. See how...
Jo: I think? But I think that, but when all of the things that I have that I speak about and my beliefs, I would have to really, really, really, really believe in something to, try and sell it, to endorse it.
Anna: Yeah.
Jo: And I think that people are becoming so much more savvy and they can like... the audience... Social media users now are so much more intelligent... not intelligent, more media, social media savvy because it's been around. So we kind of now know it, inside out. So I think people are looking for a place where... where there's a bit more of a two-way street and... And actually whatever size audience you... you can do that with any size audience.
And it's just... and as when you go viral, you're just going to get more of what you have now. You're not like, I think people think of it... It's going to be winning the lottery. Like it's just suddenly going to change your life in so many ways. But actually your day-to-day life is exactly the same. And nobody actually gives a crap. Nobody cares. Like the people in my studio, I couldn't... the studio like, I've had like three people being like, "Oh my God, what happened to your Instagram?" But like, that's it. Like your real life doesn't change at all.
Anna: I love that. I think that's such an important message, actually, that you've kind of shared throughout this as well, that it's going to amplify what's there. And... and if what's there isn't something that's set up for that, then, you know, it's... it's not going to have that same impact as it... feel like you shifted your... because you, you know enough about... you've obviously took it apart and looked at it like if you wanted to go viral tomorrow, you could like, I know you could because you know the secret sauce of how to do it. But you specifically, I feel like you don't... You stay away from it. And what's... what's that? Because... because there's obviously you shifted your message in a lot on Instagram.
Jo: Yeah. Actually, it's an interesting question, actually. I think in the specific area of work that I do from two perspectives, I love 1-to-1 work. It's... I just love it. It's where it brings me the most joy. It's where I think I add the most value. And I know that if I went viral tomorrow, I wouldn't be able to... I wouldn't have the capacity to take on that many 1-to-1 clients. And perhaps I would consider different models, but it would have to be really aligned, because right now I love 1-to-1. So it would have to kind of have the same impact on both me and the potential client.
So from that perspective, the capacity and the 1-to-1 element, also from the perspective, I have actually gotten more and more specific with my messaging, so I'm... the ideal client pool... I suppose the person that I'm targeting has gone from out here to, you know, this small pool of people. So my positioning has really shifted to speak to a very specific person. And as a result, I've focused much more on honing in on that person. I could go broader and speak to, you know, a sort of a wider pool of people. Pool sounds really cold again, like what you were saying earlier.
So that said, those are kind of like the... the couple of perspectives, actually. And you see a lot of... I think I think it only really matters having a big audience if you're teaching people how to have a big audience. Other than that, people don't really... don't really care. Like they just want the information they don't necessarily... it is... is validating in a, in a funny way. But I think people care about it less and less, and especially people who are probably your target market who understand marketing. So they're not going to be as impressed by... than someone who doesn't understand it as much.
Anna: Are... I've loved this conversation. Thank you again. You know, I really, really appreciate you taking the time to come and chat with me. I think, as always, I could talk with you all day, love what you've got to say. But I also think this is going to be so valuable to anybody listening. I know that I would have loved to have listened to this podcast as well, despite being the... the one talking with you, but, yeah, thank you for all of this gold. I think it's been, as you've said earlier, one of the few conversations that I've certainly come across where people actually talk about the whole side of, of going viral, not just the... the journey to that virality. And yeah, I think that, you know, if there's anyone who's... who this has happened to and they want to chat, like reach out because it was because all of the... all because I looked for someone to help me manage it. And then... and I just couldn't find anyone. It was like the, you know, the end of the fairy tale when you go viral. And then it was like, "and now you've gone viral. So by," or it was like, "and now how can we get you influencer deals?" And, and I was like, "Oh, that's not..." I just wanted like a little... that's why I thought I would come on and talk about it just in case if there was other people who wanted to, who it had happened to, or were planning on it happening too, and wanted to know the full story.
Jo: Yeah. No. Absolutely. Yeah. No, I think... I think it's super valuable for... for those who have gone viral, those who have wondered about going viral, literally anybody actually, I think will find this super, super valuable as I have. I think it's been a great conversation.
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